The title of this turned me off because in the big picture ultra-leftism is really the least of our worries - what the Palestine movement achieved in the last few years to my mind is amazing, with many more examples of solidarity than infighting, and yet we came so far short in so many ways. We are up against so much. I mean, if you want to talk about a model of balancing pragmatism with what needs to be done the uncommitted movement was unimpeachable. And yet. I agree about AOC, for sure. I think this interview is more about DSA politics than the movement writ large, which is fine. One thing tho is I don't think the tension about not going "full anti-Zionist" vis a vis some Palestinian groups is about "the working class" - it's about the understandable moral pull of Palestinian led groups and how that intersects with the way one conceives a broad strategy. it's a legitimately tough question that depends on lots of things and you can derive it from first principles. the spring 2024 statement by BDS about the need for flexible radicalism was a model. So I think there are important points here but the bigger story is not about ultra leftism but about that we just weren't big or powerful enough to stop this horror
A correction to Hoda Mitwally's comment regarding ILWU local 10. I assume he was referring to the Nov. 3 2023 picket of the Military Sealift Command(MSC) vessel Cape Orlando in Oakland. The Cape Orlando was preparing to leave for Tacoma, Washington where it was scheduled to take on military equipment for Israel. There was no cargo on the ship in Oakland. Local 10 does not handle lines for MSC vessels in the Bay Area. On the morning of its departure a picket was organized by the San Francisco based Arab Resource and Organizing Center(AROC). About 200 people arrived by 5am and picketed the dock for a few hours, with people arriving all morning. As the ship was leaving several actiivists were able to get on board by jumping onto the jacobs ladder, a ladder deployed on the side of the ship to take on a ships pilot while the ship is underway. This delayed the deaparture of the vessel by several hours. Upon arrival in Tacoma, where ILWU local 23 does handle military cargo, a picket of up to a thousand people shut down the entire terminal for almost 24 hours. Local 23 members didn't cross the picket line and the Navy eventually loaded the vessel by bringing a barge with the cargo to the outboard side of the ship and loading it from there. The ship eventually sailed and delivered its cargo to the port of Ashdod in Israel
1. DSA's blanket condemnation of J Street as Zionist is ill-considered. I much prefer Jewish Voice for Peace, and dissatisfaction with Israel grows apace, but we are not yet at the point where opposition to Israeli policy matches what blossomed during the Vietnam War. Jews who have not yet broken with Zionism are a political constituency that punches above its weight. They should be cultivated, not subject to categorical condemnation.
2. National DSA is still AWOL on the upcoming No Kings protests, a sad case of sectarianism and political malpractice.
3. Citation of the House Progressive Caucus is delusional. It is mostly hacks. This outfit couldn't even bring itself to endorse Bernie, who founded it.
4. It is bad economics to pose Federal budget money for human needs vs. aid to Israel. I would cut off that aid in a heartbeat, but the reality is there is plenty money for both. Aid to Israel is no excuse for failure to fund non-defense domestic programs.
Bashir Abu-Manneh: "I have a hard time imagining how you’ll build enough power to seriously change US policy towards Israel and the Middle East. And you really do need a huge amount of power, because US ruling class support for Israel is not really about Israel or Palestine per se — it’s because the American elite needs to dominate in the Middle East to control oil, sell arms, and syphon off petrodollars."
That is historically completely false and remains essentially false. Ruling class support for Israel at its inception was entirely about Zionism/ Israel / reaction to Hitler. Domestic US political considerations were paramount and decisive as Truman said. The usual and usually decisive Marxist/economic /imperialist considerations represented by Big Oil counted 100% AGAINST Israel. So Big Oil & the Republican Party were more pro-Arab stance for decades. In return the Arab vote in the USA was Republican. But the Israel / AIPAC / the Israel Lobby won & coopted its former opposition over the decades.
The crazy view that Israel was/is an outpost/pawn/victim of US imperialism, when it does nothing but obstruct rational US imperialism as practiced everywhere else in the world, is mainly due to the indefatigable insistence of Noam Chomsky. Based on zero evidence, but tragically an enduring legacy. Chomsky's baseless ultra-Leftism here did not and will not help free Palestine.
Israel is and always was a giant liability for the USA. The ruling class support IS about Israel & Palestine per se. Recognizing this history and reality could be cause for relative optimism. This huge amount of extra power to overcome genuine rational economic interests is not needed. Just the amount of power that the Israel Lobby needed to prevail in 1947 and 1948. Difficult but doable. Israel has even re-enacted the earlier circumstance, now cast in the opposing role.
At the very start Israel benefited more from Soviet than US help. Support for Israel is based on the need to create division in the region to secure cheap oil. It is likely no coincidence that the current atrocities began quickly after Iran and Saudi Arabia tried to get closer.
This would get you kicked out of the IC. All of you would be called 'soft Zionists' on the Middle East & Africa subcommittee. This is a great discussion but following the advice given contradicts the antizionist resolutions adopted at the local and national level.
(I hope it's clear I agree with you guys, not the IC)
"Internally, I think we’ve failed to consistently build the biggest and broadest coalition possible, a movement laser-focused on ending US support for Israel’s atrocities. To do that, we would have to more consistently work with people who don’t agree with us on every single thing. It would require a greater number of leftists leaving their comfort zone of being a powerless opposition, protesting on the sidelines, expressing our moral outrage online."
While I disagreed with a lot of this post, I thought the last section about labor organizing was spot-on and fantastically articulated. When the slow way is the only way that has a real chance, too many middle class activists would rather melt down and curse the laws of physics.
i disagree with your point on AOC, it’s not just a matter of her votes on israel (though, to correct you, she did vote against an amendment blocking aid to israel’s iron dome and then defended it) but rather her advocacy for palestine, for instance she has remained silent on the sumud flotilla
What happens to the current Jewish inhabitants of Israel if you get your “peace” and how do you intend to articulate that vision to said Jews when you ask them to disarm?
Get the fuck out and go back to Europe where you can demand recompense for this embarassing episode, or settle for an actual democracy where you're not subject to special treatment.
Pick one. And settlers get the boot. All idf personally get the boot. All Israel gov ministers get the boot. Or worse.
The title of this turned me off because in the big picture ultra-leftism is really the least of our worries - what the Palestine movement achieved in the last few years to my mind is amazing, with many more examples of solidarity than infighting, and yet we came so far short in so many ways. We are up against so much. I mean, if you want to talk about a model of balancing pragmatism with what needs to be done the uncommitted movement was unimpeachable. And yet. I agree about AOC, for sure. I think this interview is more about DSA politics than the movement writ large, which is fine. One thing tho is I don't think the tension about not going "full anti-Zionist" vis a vis some Palestinian groups is about "the working class" - it's about the understandable moral pull of Palestinian led groups and how that intersects with the way one conceives a broad strategy. it's a legitimately tough question that depends on lots of things and you can derive it from first principles. the spring 2024 statement by BDS about the need for flexible radicalism was a model. So I think there are important points here but the bigger story is not about ultra leftism but about that we just weren't big or powerful enough to stop this horror
I mean that you *can't* derive from first principles, obviously
A correction to Hoda Mitwally's comment regarding ILWU local 10. I assume he was referring to the Nov. 3 2023 picket of the Military Sealift Command(MSC) vessel Cape Orlando in Oakland. The Cape Orlando was preparing to leave for Tacoma, Washington where it was scheduled to take on military equipment for Israel. There was no cargo on the ship in Oakland. Local 10 does not handle lines for MSC vessels in the Bay Area. On the morning of its departure a picket was organized by the San Francisco based Arab Resource and Organizing Center(AROC). About 200 people arrived by 5am and picketed the dock for a few hours, with people arriving all morning. As the ship was leaving several actiivists were able to get on board by jumping onto the jacobs ladder, a ladder deployed on the side of the ship to take on a ships pilot while the ship is underway. This delayed the deaparture of the vessel by several hours. Upon arrival in Tacoma, where ILWU local 23 does handle military cargo, a picket of up to a thousand people shut down the entire terminal for almost 24 hours. Local 23 members didn't cross the picket line and the Navy eventually loaded the vessel by bringing a barge with the cargo to the outboard side of the ship and loading it from there. The ship eventually sailed and delivered its cargo to the port of Ashdod in Israel
Misinformed in a few places.
1. DSA's blanket condemnation of J Street as Zionist is ill-considered. I much prefer Jewish Voice for Peace, and dissatisfaction with Israel grows apace, but we are not yet at the point where opposition to Israeli policy matches what blossomed during the Vietnam War. Jews who have not yet broken with Zionism are a political constituency that punches above its weight. They should be cultivated, not subject to categorical condemnation.
2. National DSA is still AWOL on the upcoming No Kings protests, a sad case of sectarianism and political malpractice.
3. Citation of the House Progressive Caucus is delusional. It is mostly hacks. This outfit couldn't even bring itself to endorse Bernie, who founded it.
4. It is bad economics to pose Federal budget money for human needs vs. aid to Israel. I would cut off that aid in a heartbeat, but the reality is there is plenty money for both. Aid to Israel is no excuse for failure to fund non-defense domestic programs.
Regards.
Bashir Abu-Manneh: "I have a hard time imagining how you’ll build enough power to seriously change US policy towards Israel and the Middle East. And you really do need a huge amount of power, because US ruling class support for Israel is not really about Israel or Palestine per se — it’s because the American elite needs to dominate in the Middle East to control oil, sell arms, and syphon off petrodollars."
That is historically completely false and remains essentially false. Ruling class support for Israel at its inception was entirely about Zionism/ Israel / reaction to Hitler. Domestic US political considerations were paramount and decisive as Truman said. The usual and usually decisive Marxist/economic /imperialist considerations represented by Big Oil counted 100% AGAINST Israel. So Big Oil & the Republican Party were more pro-Arab stance for decades. In return the Arab vote in the USA was Republican. But the Israel / AIPAC / the Israel Lobby won & coopted its former opposition over the decades.
The crazy view that Israel was/is an outpost/pawn/victim of US imperialism, when it does nothing but obstruct rational US imperialism as practiced everywhere else in the world, is mainly due to the indefatigable insistence of Noam Chomsky. Based on zero evidence, but tragically an enduring legacy. Chomsky's baseless ultra-Leftism here did not and will not help free Palestine.
Israel is and always was a giant liability for the USA. The ruling class support IS about Israel & Palestine per se. Recognizing this history and reality could be cause for relative optimism. This huge amount of extra power to overcome genuine rational economic interests is not needed. Just the amount of power that the Israel Lobby needed to prevail in 1947 and 1948. Difficult but doable. Israel has even re-enacted the earlier circumstance, now cast in the opposing role.
At the very start Israel benefited more from Soviet than US help. Support for Israel is based on the need to create division in the region to secure cheap oil. It is likely no coincidence that the current atrocities began quickly after Iran and Saudi Arabia tried to get closer.
This was a great interview, Eric, and an awesome resource for our movements!
This would get you kicked out of the IC. All of you would be called 'soft Zionists' on the Middle East & Africa subcommittee. This is a great discussion but following the advice given contradicts the antizionist resolutions adopted at the local and national level.
(I hope it's clear I agree with you guys, not the IC)
"Internally, I think we’ve failed to consistently build the biggest and broadest coalition possible, a movement laser-focused on ending US support for Israel’s atrocities. To do that, we would have to more consistently work with people who don’t agree with us on every single thing. It would require a greater number of leftists leaving their comfort zone of being a powerless opposition, protesting on the sidelines, expressing our moral outrage online."
While I disagreed with a lot of this post, I thought the last section about labor organizing was spot-on and fantastically articulated. When the slow way is the only way that has a real chance, too many middle class activists would rather melt down and curse the laws of physics.
i disagree with your point on AOC, it’s not just a matter of her votes on israel (though, to correct you, she did vote against an amendment blocking aid to israel’s iron dome and then defended it) but rather her advocacy for palestine, for instance she has remained silent on the sumud flotilla
What happens to the current Jewish inhabitants of Israel if you get your “peace” and how do you intend to articulate that vision to said Jews when you ask them to disarm?
Get the fuck out and go back to Europe where you can demand recompense for this embarassing episode, or settle for an actual democracy where you're not subject to special treatment.
Pick one. And settlers get the boot. All idf personally get the boot. All Israel gov ministers get the boot. Or worse.
Clue in